I had an interesting 'discussion' about faith yesterday.

It started in all innocence, and I'm not sure we disagreed in what we really meant.

It came from a song that was sung at what we believed was going to be a time of revival. But the revival didn't happen, and we've heard so many messages of a similar nature at various times that Chris and I now reject them unless there is a good reason to believe they are true. How does one know if a prophet is telling what God has given or is speaking out of his own will? You get the picture.

My point is that faith needs to have a Hebrews 11 result. You don't get the result *before* the faith, but the faith should be accompanied sooner or later by the result.

One doesn't always see the result in one's own lifetime, but if I hear someone say 'today is the day' then today had, in fact, better be THE day.

I take issue with the idea that faith is hoping for something that we won't see in this life. It's almost funny:

Heb 11 v29: By faith the people passed through the Red Sea in the spiritual realms; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

Heb 11 v30: By faith the walls of Jericho fell in the spiritual realms, after the army had marched around them for seven days.

I could change quite a lot to make them funny, but the point is obvious. If faith doesn't result in a real change to a real outcome then what use is it? In one sense, salvation is easy to believe for, because the colossal up-front change doesn't have to happen now, and the gradual change as we slowly become a little less nasty and a little more like Jesus is progressive. But receiving your dead back isn't progressive - it's very immediate and right here, right now. Not being eaten by lions isn't something that gradually develops in your life or takes place in the heavenlies.

I know this is a slightly perverse way of looking at things, but I'm sick of hearing about the spirit-man this and the heavenlies that without seeing that faith re-shaping the real world. Either faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see, or it's just safe, wishful thinking about stuff that's safely 'out there, somewhere' that doesn't have to become real.